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Old 05Jan2007, 09:11 AM   #16
Ibn Shareef
 
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Ok, MaryM... I have just read one of the links about your beliefs...

They simply quote from Mirza Ghulaam Ahmad from Ayyam as-Sulh and Nurul Haqq as saying that he is indeed a Muslim, and he believes in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah.

A few things inshaAllah:

In the books 'Al Baraheen Ahmadiyyah' and 'At-Tableegh' there occurs mostly the opposite of what he says here. In these books he:

(1) Claimed that he received revelation
(2) Claimed that he was the Promised Messiah
(3) Claimed that he was divinely inspired with more than 10,000 verses
(4) Claimed that whoever belies him is a non-Believer
(5) Claimed that it is obligatory on Muslims to make Hajj to Qadyan, India because he claimed it is a holy city like, Makkah and Madinah.

Also, we have statements from Mirza Bashir ad-Deen, his son and his successor, including what was written in his book called Aynat Sadaqat:

"Verily every Muslim who does not take an oath of allegiance to the promised Messiah (i.e. His Father), whether he heard his name or not, is a disbeliever and outside the fold of Islaam" (pg.35)

He is also quoted in the Qadyaani Journal, Al-Fadhl as reporting from his father, Ghulaam Ahmad himself that he said: "We disagree with the Muslims in everything: Concerning Allaah, the Messenger, the Qur'aan, prayer, fasting, Hajj, Zakaah. Between us and them is a fundamental difference in all of these things." (30th July 1931)

In the same journal, volume 3, it was said: "Verily Mirza is the Prophet Muhammad (salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam)." claiming that he was the fulfillment of the Words of the Qur'aan quoting 'Isa:

"...and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed. But when he (Ahmed i.e. Muhammad Sal-Allaahu 'alayhe Wa Sallam) came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is plain magic." (61:6)

(The Book of Warning of the Caliphate pg. 21)

In addition to these beliefs, it has been established from the writing of Mirza Ghulaam Ahmad himself through the abundant and continuous letters which he wrote to the English Government in India, which display his support and affection for them, including his declaration that Jihaad was forbidden and his refutation of the concept of Jihaad, in order to inspire loyalty in the heart of the Muslims towards the English Colonial Government in India. Because, (so he claimed) the concept of Jihaad which some of the ignorant Muslims profess, prevents them for expressing loyalty to the English. In this regard, he said, in the appendix to his book 'Shahaadah Al-Qur'aan' sixth edition, pg 17:

"I firmly believe that as my followers increase, the number of those who believe in Jihaad will decrease, because the belief that I am the Messiah or the Mahdi necessitates the rejection of Jihaad." (See Professor An-Nadawi's thesis published by the Muslim World League, page 25)

Now, do you have explanations for these statements? As said, these were taken from their own books and letters he himself wrote. We would like to hear and learn the truth inshaAllaah, if this is not it.

Another thing that should be mentioned is what you mentioned before, that it is your belief that 'Isaa ibn Maryam has died and is buried. This was also stated (on the link) by Mirza Ghulaam Ahmad as 'the only difference' What I am able to say clearly is that this belief is not found in the Qur'aan or the Sunnah.

Just briefly quoting the ayah, 4:157:

And because of their saying (in boast), "We killed Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), the Messenger of Allâh," - but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemblance of 'Iesa (Jesus) was put over another man (and they killed that man), and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no (certain) knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely; they killed him not [i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary)]:

So Allaah, the Most Glorified has rejected the claims of the Jews that they killed or crucified him and informs us that He raised him up to Himself; and this was truly a mercy and an honor for him; and it is a Sign from among His Signs, which He gives to those among His Messengers whom He wills. How many Signs of Allaah were given to 'Isaa the son of Mary from first to last! It is necessarily understood from His Words:

"But Allaah raised him (Isa) up unto Himself..."

that He, the Most Glorified, Most High, raised him up by body and soul, in order to reject the Jews' claim that to have crucified and killed him. this is because crucifixion and killing are necessarily of the body, and raising of just the soul woujld not be a rejection of their claim to have killed and crucified him, and hence would not be a reply to them. Also the name of 'Isa refers to his body and soul together, never to just one of them unless there is some evidence to prove it- and there is none here.

In addition to this, Allaah says 4:159:

And there is none of the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), but must believe in him ['Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), as only a Messenger of Allâh and a human being], before his ['Iesa (Jesus) or a Jew's or a Christian's] death (at the time of the appearance of the angel of death). And on the Day of Resurrection, he ['Iesa (Jesus)] will be a witness against them.

So, Allaah the Most High informs us that all of the People of the Book, the Jews and Christians will believe in 'Isa, the son of Mary before his death-that is, the death of 'Isa- which will be after his descent at the end of time, ruling and spreading justice calling the people to Islaam, and will be made clear in the ahadeeth which prove that he will descend.

It has been confirmed in many authentic ahadeeth from many different sources- reaching the level of 'mutawaatir' (i.e. A hadeeth which is reported from so many different sources that its authenticity is unquestionable)- that Allaah, the Most High raised 'Isa up to the heaven and that he will descend at the end of time and judge fairly(between the people) and he wil kill Al-Maseeh Ad-Dajjaal.

Shaykhul Islaam ibn Taymiyyah mentions: "These ahadeeth are mutawaatir from the Messenger of Allaah, salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam, on the authority of Abu Hurairah, ibn Mas'ud, 'Uthmaan bin Abee Al-'Aas, Abu Umaamah, An-Nawwaas ibn Sam'aan, Abdullah ibn Amr ibn Al-'Aas and Hudhaifah bin Usayd, may Allah be pleased with them- and in them is evidence of the description of his descent and its location...etc."

Among these is the hadeeth on the authority of Abu Hurairah, that the Prophet salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam said:

"By Him is who Hand is my soul, 'Isa, the son of Mary will soon descend among you, ruling with justice, and he will break the crosses and kill the pigs and cancel the Jizyah and wealth will be so abundant, that no one will accept it."

This hadeeth was related by Al-Bukhaaree, Muslim, at-Tirmidhi and Ahmad.

And there are many others that prove that he will descend at the end of time.

This is the belief from the Qur'aan and the Sunnah of the Prophet salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam.

Now, on the link I read:

"We believe that whatever Allah has said in the Holy Quran, and whatever the Holy Prophet Muhammad has said, is true..."

"that I consider unlawful all that the Holy Prophet had declared unlawful and lawful all that he had declared lawful, that I have neither added to the Shari`ah, nor taken away anything from it, not even to the extent of an atom, and that I accept all that has reached us from the Messenger of Allah, on whom be peace and the blessings of Allah, whether I understand its secret or not, and that by Allah's grace, I am a believer and believe in One God."

"We accept all commandments of the Holy Prophet and believe that disregard of even a minor commandment amounts to mischief..."

"...and following the Holy Quran and the traditions which are proved to have emanated from the Prophet of God. We consider it necessary to follow even a weak Hadith if it is not against the Holy Quran. We consider Bukhari and Muslim [the two compilations of Hadith] as the most reliable books after the Book of Allah [the Holy Quran]."

Therefore, I light of all this, I don't understand where the belief that 'Isa is dead and buried came from. As you can see, it is not from the Qur'aan or the Sunnah, although Mirza is reported to have said that he considers it necessary to follow even a weak hadeeth, and he considers Bukhaaree and Muslim the most authentic books of hadeeth, yet he apparently does not believe in these ahadeeth about 'Isa which comes from these same authentic sources. So I hope you can shed some light on this inshaAllah.

Another thing I noticed is that he did not mention anything about the belief of Qadr, i.e. Pre-ordainment. The Muslims believe that Imaan, Faith, is belief in 6 things: Allaah, the Angels, the Messengers, the Books the Last Day, and Pre-ordainment, the good or bad of it. And this is a requirement of Imaan, you don't have faith without believing in this.

It has been authetically narrated by Imaam Muslim in his Saheeh collection of hadeeth, as well as in many other ahadeeth, and this is one from them:

Ibn `Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) said: "By Him in Whose Hand is the soul of Ibn `Umar, if anyone possessed gold as much as the mountain of Uhud and spent it in Allah's cause, Allah would not accept it from him unless he believed in Allah's Qadr." Then he may Allah be pleased with him cited as evidence the words of the Prophet Salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam :"Imaan (faith) is to believe in (i) Allah, (ii) His angels, (iii) His revealed Books, (iv) His Messengers, (v) the Day of Resurrection and (vi) Al-Qadr, both the good and bad of it."

So what is your belief concering this?

These are some of the things I wanted to ask you... I hope we get a positive response from you. And we ask you to bring the proof supporting your beliefs, we have brought ours wal hamdulillah.

(I quoted from fataawa Islaamiyyah Vol.1)
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Old 11Jan2007, 02:54 PM   #17
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umm...where is MaryM?
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Old 11Jan2007, 04:58 PM   #18
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Was wondering that myself. I hope she posts her responses soon for us to see.
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Old 02Feb2007, 11:07 PM   #19
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I'm very sorry for not replying sooner but I haven't even had time to check the forums since my last posts. I'd just like to let you all know that I have read most of your posts and insha allah I will be able to post something sensible soon. I've just started a course on " Prophecies of the return of Jesus" It's really quite interesting so far.
Your questions have led me to do a bit more research into these issues myself and at the end of it all I'll present to you my own findings.
.........It seems though that the books which you all read may have different info to the books that I do. .....and it also seems that all the information is skewed in one direction or the other.

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I long for a world where all are united in praising Allah whether they call themselves muslims or not because it is in these simple actions that our true hearts as muslims shine.

Allah knows best what is to come. We are one.
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Old 04Feb2007, 07:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
It seems though that the books which you all read may have different info to the books that I do. .....and it also seems that all the information is skewed in one direction or the other.
^

All books must be referred back to the Qur'an and the Saheeh Hadith,and these references made by Ibn Shareef et al are not skewed....they ALL reference the Qur'an and the Authentic Hadeeth.

Once a book does not reconcile with the Qur'an and the Authentic Hadeeth,it must rejected.

The Islamic position with regard to Jesus has been made clear in Islam. Anybody who changes the Islamic postion is committing heresy, and are not Muslim. Thats the bottom line, If this is the work of the Ahmadiyyahs, then they are heretics and they are definitly not Muslim.
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Old 04Feb2007, 09:48 PM   #21
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Why is it so easy to jump to conclusions?
I simply said that I am doing a course in which we are studying the prophecies regarding the return of Jesus. ....oy
Also.....Didn't I read from the Manual of Hadith today that it is unlawful for a muslim to call another muslim a Kafir?
Just a thought.

Actually Ahmadiyyat beliefs are all from the Holy Qur'an ......and with all due respect I believe that you are wrong on one count...: Islamic veiwpoints are not set in stone. When that occurs, the beauty and reality of our religion is tainted. We must always be open to possibility.

More soon
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Old 05Feb2007, 06:34 AM   #22
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I simply said that I am doing a course in which we are studying the prophecies regarding the return of Jesus.
We have only one prophecy in Islam with regard to the return of Jesus...that of Muhammad (Sallalahu alaihi wa salam)

Quote:
Also.....Didn't I read from the Manual of Hadith today that it is unlawful for a muslim to call another muslim a Kafir?
Just a thought.

Actually Ahmadiyyat beliefs are all from the Holy Qur'an ......and with all due respect I believe that you are wrong on one count...: Islamic veiwpoints are not set in stone. When that occurs, the beauty and reality of our religion is tainted. We must always be open to possibility.
With regard to Ahamediyyah, if you read all the previous posts...it explains that they are not Muslim. In fact the whole Muslim world rejects them as being Muslim.....they are not even allowed to make Hajj, that is why they go under the guise of being Muslim.

Secondly....please explain what you mean by :"Islamic viewpoints are not set in stone". With regards to Aqeedah and with regards to the commands and prophecies of the Prophet (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) it is set in stone.

For anyone to change his (sallalahu alaihi wa salam) prophecies and for anyone to make claims about him that he did not say and for anyone to create new prophecies, they are the worst of liars and definitely not Muslim. We don;t go changing and re-inventing Islam to make it beautiful in the eyes of men, this was the faults of all the other people of the book.

We submit to what Allah and his messenger gave to us....anyone who does not do this is NOT a Muslim.
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Old 05Feb2007, 01:10 PM   #23
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Bismillah:

MaryM...good to see you come back... alhamdulillah. Maybe now you can address the issues we have raised and reply, as you said, sensibly, if by the word you mean, based on the Qur'aan and the authentic Sunnah and understanding of the best of this Ummah, the Sahaabah.

This is what we desire from you. This is fair to ask because Islaam, whether you like or not, is not based upon the intellect or opinions of one person or the other, if this was the case then Islaam would change individual to individual; everybody is on a different level of intellect. Rather, Islaam is based on submitting to the authentic texts.

Allaah said: "It is not for a believer, man or woman, when Allâh and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error." (33:36)

So we do not desire from you your opinions or what you gathered upon your intellect or what you understood from it...rather, we want from you the proofs and clear evidences from the Qur'aan and the Sunnah with the correct interpretations to support what you said.

The Slave of the Most High said:
Quote:
All books must be referred back to the Qur'an and the Saheeh Hadith
This is because Allaah said: "...and if you differ in anything refer it back to Allaah and His Messenger if you truly believe in Allaah and the Last Day..." (Surah An Nisaa)

So we return our affairs to the Book and the Sunnah inshaAllah.

Quote:
.........It seems though that the books which you all read may have different info to the books that I do. .....and it also seems that all the information is skewed in one direction or the other
The books quoted in the previous post are the actual books of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, and his son. They are the authors. And some of the other quotes were from hand-written letters from the man himself, that were published in journals...and the references were quoted in full, so refer to it if you have doubt.

Now you said:
Quote:
Actually Ahmadiyyat beliefs are all from the Holy Qur'an
MaryM, yahdeekillaah ta'aala, I have already shown in my previous post (de big long one) that what I read on the link you sent us, and what is the Qur'aan and the Sunnah are contradictory. And the fact, notice I'm saying fact eh, that Mirza Ghulaam Ahmad contradicted himself on the issue of Jesus, alaihis salaam. And it is not possible to say about this noble Prophet, alaihis salaam, what Allaah and His Messenger didn't say.

Now very simply put, if you reject something that Allaah has made clear in the Qur'aan and the Messenger has made clear in the Sunnah, this amounts to disbelief in Allaah and rejection of his Religion.

Allaah said: "Do you believe in part of the Book and disbelieve in another part? Then what is the reward of the one who does this amongst you except humiliation in this life and on the Day of Ressurection they shall be consigned to the most grievous torment..." (Surah Al Baqarah)

Quote:
and with all due respect I believe that you are wrong on one count...: Islamic veiwpoints are not set in stone.
Now you see this 'I believe' part...this is what I was referring to earlier. Islaam is based on evidences, and the Prophet salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam said that burden of proof is upon the claimant. So my dear MaryM, you have to provide proof for your statement, because providing proof is evidence of truthfulness and the opposite is also true.

Allaah said: "This day I have perfected this Religion for you and completed my Favour upon you and am pleased with Al Islaam as a Deen for you..." (Surah Maaidah)

Now, Allaah perfected this Deen meaning that there is nothing to be added or taken away from it or changed. And this means also that the Religion is for all times and for all places and it does not change from century to century. If one denies this, and adds something to the Deen or says that the Deen changes in different eras, then he will be essentially saying that Allaah lied when He revealed this verse and this is clear disbelief. Now I'm pretty sure that you're not saying that are you?


Rather Islamic Viewpoints are 'set in stone' when Allaah and His Messenger has clearly ruled upon something, there is no disputing it except for the ignorant ones and the innovators, because Allaah said: "And Verily this is My Straight Way, so follow it; and do not follow other ways because they will separate you from His Way..."
(Surah An'aam)

And in an authentic hadeeth, the Messenger of Allaah drew a line in the sand, and he drew lines to the left and right, and he said 'This is Allaah's Path' and on the head of the lines to the left and the right and Devils calling you to the Fire, and then he recited the verse quoted above.Islaam is one path, not many.

May Allaah guide us to it and keep us on it.

Quote:
We must always be open to possibility
The door to the possibility you speak of, and this possibility is speaking of new beliefs, contrary to what is established in the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, has been closed by Muhammad ibn 'Abdillaah salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam.

He said in an authentic hadeeth that was collected by Imaam at-Tirmidhee, and others: "...I command you to follow my Sunnah, and the Sunnah of the Rightly Guided Caliphs, bite unto it with your molar teeth. And beware of newly introduced matter, for every newly invented matter is an innovation, and every innovation is misguidance...."

And in the Khutbahs, he used to add: "...and every misguidance is in the Hell-Fire."

So nothing new enters into this Deen, so all the doors of 'possibilities' have been slammed shut.

This is not 'closed-mindedness' or 'backward thinking' or the like. This is obedience to Allaah and the Messenger, and true following of the Book and the Sunnah.

abd.al.'ala said:
Quote:
We submit to what Allah and his messenger gave to us
Allaah said: "And whatever the Messenger gave you; take it and whatever he forbids you from; abstain from it." (Surah Al Hashr)

And He, tabaaraka wa ta'aala said: "But no, by your Lord, they will never truly believe until they make you a judge over what is between them, then they do not find any opposition to what you have decided, and they submit with a full submission..." (Surah An Nisaa)

And the Prophet salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam is reported to have said, on the authority of Abdullah ibn 'Amr Ibn Al 'Aas: "None of you truly believes until you desire follows and submits to what I have come with..." (Reported by Al Asfahaanee in Kitaabul Hujjah and was authenticated by Shaykh Muhammad ibn 'Abdil Wahhaab Al Wasaabee and others)

Therefore, as was said before by the brother, we submit to the texts.

jayyid


We are still waiting, patiently inshaAllah, for you to address the issues we raised with proof...

and remember when you are responding inshaAllah that knowledge comes before speech and action and Allaah ta'aala knows better.

And Allaah is the One grants correctness.
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Old 10Feb2007, 11:15 PM   #24
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Asalaamu Alaikum everyone.

Like MaryM here, I am also an Ahmadi, and as such I have been following this topic for a little while. Maybe I can help explain things a bit.

Firstly someone said:

"With regard to Ahamediyyah, if you read all the previous posts...it explains that they are not Muslim. In fact the whole Muslim world rejects them as being Muslim.....they are not even allowed to make Hajj, that is why they go under the guise of being Muslim."

Please look at the first three verses Chapter 109 of the Holy Qur'an:

"Say: O disbelievers,

I serve not that which you serve

Nor do you serve Him Whom I serve"


If you call someone who truly is a Muslim and truly believes in Almighty Allah, a Kafir, then by being a Muslim yourself you are contradicting the very words of the Holy Qur'an. Therefore, with all respect, I caution you to use the term sparingly if at all, for who, but the Almighty is qualified to pass such judgement on people?

This is all that I am able to post right now, but I shall continue when I have more time.

Was-salaam
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Old 11Feb2007, 12:39 AM   #25
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Salaamun 'Alaa man-it-tab'al Hudaa

I would like to thank farrie for her contribution....maybe in MaryM's absence or during her quest for knowledge... you'll be able to address the impending issues that have been standing for quite a while inshaAllah.

Now, let me just mention something very briefly inshaAllah:

Quote:
"With regard to Ahamediyyah, if you read all the previous posts...it explains that they are not Muslim. In fact the whole Muslim world rejects them as being Muslim.....they are not even allowed to make Hajj, that is why they go under the guise of being Muslim."
So you said:
Quote:
If you call someone who truly is a Muslim and truly believes in Almighty Allah, a Kafir, then by being a Muslim yourself you are contradicting the very words of the Holy Qur'an. Therefore, with all respect, I caution you to use the term sparingly if at all, for who, but the Almighty is qualified to pass such judgement on people?
jayyid.

Now, someone doesn't become a muslim just by believing in Allaah, there must be other aspects of belief that accompany this. This is so because the fact is that the Christians truly believe in Allaah (the Father), likewise the Jews,and even some Hindus, yet they have not entered into the fold of Islaam, and our Lord, the Mighty and Majestic declared to be disbelievers many times in the Qur'aan, and our Messenger did likewise, in the Prophetic Sunnah.

In addition to this, the Pagans that the Prophet salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam fought believed that Allaah was the only Creator, Sustainer, the only One who controlled the affairs, the only One who gave and took life etc...yet this didn't enter them into Islaam....this was because they used to worship other objects along with Allaah, while it is only Allaah Who deserves worship.

Islaam is: Submitting to Allaah upon Tawheed (i.e. worshipping Allaah alone) and compliance upon His Obedience and absolving oneself from Shirk (associating partners with Allaah) and its people.

Also from Islaam is completely believing in everything Allaah sent down, which includes the Qur'aan in its entirety and the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet.

Now, by the concensus of the Scholars of Al Islaam, if someone believes that there is a Prophet after the Muhammad salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam, this is a rejection of the verse where Allaah, our Lord, said:

Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (seal) of the Prophets (Surah Al Ahzaab)

This person, unfortunately, has not entered into Islaam or they left Islaam, because they rejected a clear verse of the Qur'an and made our Lord, the Mighty and Majestic, to be liar and He is far removed from that.

Secondly, if a person believes that Prophet Jesus has died and is buried, this is also a contradiction to what Allaah says in the Qur'aan AND what the Messenger of Allaah said in the authentic ahaadeeth, and this also entails a lie upon our Lord, may He be exalted above that.

And Allaah said: "...Do you believe in one part of the Book and disbelieve in another part?..." (Surah Al Baqarah)

The verse goes on to describe the punishment that such a person will receive.

Quote:
caution you to use the term sparingly if at all, for who, but the Almighty is qualified to pass such judgement on people
You are correct, and Allaah passed the judgement as you have seen above.

And these are two primary aspects of Ahmadee creed and you know this.

This is according to the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, not according to us and our opinions.

So we ask once again for proof for your beliefs...if they are authentic and correct, we will accept them from you inshaAllah, if not, we will reject it.

The Prophet said: "Whoever introduces into our affair something which is not from it will have it rejected."

So we ask from you that which is fair, and we continue our seemingly endless wait inshaAllah.

So far, I must say, no proof or evidence has been presented to support your claims and Allaah is the One in Who help is sought.
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Old 11Feb2007, 01:36 PM   #26
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That last post was a lot. I shall try to respond to as many of the issues raised as possible.

1. It was said that belief in Almighty Allah is not the only requirement for being a Muslim, but you would agree with me that it is at least the most important of them, for without believing in Him, we cannot believe in that which He has revealed or His messengers.

The point I wanted to make was that if you call someone a Kafir, you are not supposed to believe in ANYTHING that they believe in. Therefore you should not be too quick to use the term.

Quote:
You are correct, and Allaah passed the judgement as you have seen above
What I meant is that only Allah is qualified to judge what is in our hearts and what we believe.



2.
Quote:
Now, by the concensus of the Scholars of Al Islaam, if someone believes that there is a Prophet after the Muhammad salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam, this is a rejection of the verse where Allaah, our Lord, said:

Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (seal) of the Prophets (Surah Al Ahzaab)
I am glad that you have raised this point.

As MaryM has pointed out there are two sets of Ahmadis, Qadianis and Lahoris, the latter section to which we(MaryM and I) belong.

I shall not comment on the beliefs of the Qadianis, but I shall enlighten you on what our beliefs are.

We do NOT believe that Mirza Ghulam-Ahmad was a prophet, but rather a reformer.

We DO believe that the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the Last and Final prophet. The seal of Prophethood...after whom NO Prophet, OLD or new, shall come.

If Jesus of Nazareth were to return this would mean that Muhammad was NOT the last of the prophets. For how can he be the seal of Prophethood if another Prophet were to return AFTER him?

Or is it that Jesus is to be de-moted to a position other than that of a Prophet?

3.
Quote:
Secondly, if a person believes that Prophet Jesus has died and is buried, this is also a contradiction to what Allaah says in the Qur'aan
May I bring to your attention that it was NOT said in the quoted verses of the Qur'an that Jesus did not die. All that was said is that he did not die at the hand of those who tried to kill him. As MaryM has already said, we believe that he is in fact dead, but that he did not die on the cross.

4.
Quote:
I must say, no proof or evidence has been presented to support your claims and Allaah is the One in Who help is sought.
I do agree that one should not blindly believe/accept any and everything without sufficient evidence. I have tried to respond in the shortest way that I could, but if you need clarification on any of the points feel free to ask.
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Old 11Feb2007, 02:27 PM   #27
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1. It was said that belief in Almighty Allah is not the only requirement for being a Muslim, but you would agree with me that it is at least the most important of them, for without believing in Him, we cannot believe in that which He has revealed or His messengers.

The point I wanted to make was that if you call someone a Kafir, you are not supposed to believe in ANYTHING that they believe in. Therefore you should not be too quick to use the term.

Quote:
You are correct, and Allaah passed the judgement as you have seen above


What I meant is that only Allah is qualified to judge what is in our hearts and what we believe.



2. Quote:
Now, by the concensus of the Scholars of Al Islaam, if someone believes that there is a Prophet after the Muhammad salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam, this is a rejection of the verse where Allaah, our Lord, said:

Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Messenger of Allaah and the last (seal) of the Prophets (Surah Al Ahzaab)


I am glad that you have raised this point.

As MaryM has pointed out there are two sets of Ahmadis, Qadianis and Lahoris, the latter section to which we(MaryM and I) belong.

I shall not comment on the beliefs of the Qadianis, but I shall enlighten you on what our beliefs are.

We do NOT believe that Mirza Ghulam-Ahmad was a prophet, but rather a reformer.

We DO believe that the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the Last and Final prophet. The seal of Prophethood...after whom NO Prophet, OLD or new, shall come.

If Jesus of Nazareth were to return this would mean that Muhammad was NOT the last of the prophets. For how can he be the seal of Prophethood if another Prophet were to return AFTER him?

Or is it that Jesus is to be de-moted to a position other than that of a Prophet?

3. Quote:
Secondly, if a person believes that Prophet Jesus has died and is buried, this is also a contradiction to what Allaah says in the Qur'aan


May I bring to your attention that it was NOT said in the quoted verses of the Qur'an that Jesus did not die. All that was said is that he did not die at the hand of those who tried to kill him. As MaryM has already said, we believe that he is in fact dead, but that he did not die on the cross.

4. Quote:
I must say, no proof or evidence has been presented to support your claims and Allaah is the One in Who help is sought.


I do agree that one should not blindly believe/accept any and everything without sufficient evidence. I have tried to respond in the shortest way that I could, but if you need clarification on any of the points feel free to ask.


Bismillah:

ok let's see...let's see....tayyib

Quote:
It was said that belief in Almighty Allah is not the only requirement for being a Muslim, but you would agree with me that it is at least the most important of them, for without believing in Him, we cannot believe in that which He has revealed or His messengers.
The requirement for being a Muslim, and staying a Muslim, the most important requirement, is that you worship Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic alone, and do not make partners with Him in worship, nor in lordship, nor His Names and Attributes.

If one believes in Allaah, His Messengers, His Books, the Last Day, His Angels, and Qadar, but He worships other than Allaah, then he has exited the fold of Islaam.

This is because Allaah said: "Verily whoever commits shirk with Allaah, then Paradise becomes unlawful for him and his home will be the Hell-Fire..."

And the true meaning of Imaan in Allaah, is that you believe in His Lordship i.e. He is the Creator, Sustainer, Controller of the affairs etc. That you believe in His Names and Attributes, and they are specific to Him, and we affirm and believe in them as they came. And most importantly, that you believe that Allaah alone has the sole right to be worshipped. Also, added to this, is that you believe He exists.

This is what is meant when it is said 'Believe in Allaah', not just belief without anything else.

Quote:
We do NOT believe that Mirza Ghulam-Ahmad was a prophet, but rather a reformer.
Thank you...we learned this from MaryM. I was just re-iterating the point for clarity.

In addition to this, as I already stated in previous posts... I read about your beliefs, and the statements of the 'reformer' Mirza Ghulaam Hosein. As I indicated, he contradicted himself many times....an example of this is his saying that he accepts all the ahaadeeth from Saheehul Bukhaaree and Saheeh Muslim, yet he rejects that Allaah raised up Jesus unto Himself (which was stated in the Qur'aan), and he rejects the ahaadeeth which are in abundance about the returning of Jesus, alaihis salaam, at the end of the time, which is confirmed from the Prophet.

All of Islaam comes from the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of the Messenger, and it is not possible for you to speak about this issue without a basis in them. You claim that Jesus had died and will not return. Say: "Bring your proof if you are truthful..."

Opposites cannot become one.

So the case is either that Allaah and His Messenger lied, since you claim that Jesus is dead and buried, or Mirza Ghulam Ahmad has lied a great lie.

Which one is it?



Moving on

Quote:
We DO believe that the Holy Prophet Muhammad was the Last and Final prophet. The seal of Prophethood...after whom NO Prophet, OLD or new, shall come.

If Jesus of Nazareth were to return this would mean that Muhammad was NOT the last of the prophets. For how can he be the seal of Prophethood if another Prophet were to return AFTER him?
It is very good that you believe that Muhammad is the last Prophet, salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam. Now from the beleif that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah is a few things, amongst them is that you affirm everything he informed about.

Allaah said: "And he does not speak of his own desire, he only speaks what is revealed to him..." (Surah An Najm)

So where are you from the statement of his, "What will you do when the son of Mary descends upon you..." (Saheeh Muslim)

Do you reject this statement from your Prophet whom you love?

The Scholars of Al Islaam have said:

"There is no contradiction between his descent and the fact that our Prophet, Muhammad salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam is the Last of the Prophets, since 'Isa will not bring a new law- and the judgement belongs to Allaah..."

Jesus will still be a prophet, but his mission has already ended and he was sent to the Children of Isra'eel. He will rule with the law of Muhammad, salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam and break the crosses and kill the pigs....this is what has been reported authentically from the Prophet.

So it does not mean that Muhammad, salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam is not the last Prophet.

So your understanding of this particular issue is deficient.


Quote:
May I bring to your attention that it was NOT said in the quoted verses of the Qur'an that Jesus did not die. All that was said is that he did not die at the hand of those who tried to kill him. As MaryM has already said, we believe that he is in fact dead, but that he did not die on the cross.
Allaah, the Most Knowledgeable, the All-Aware said that He raised Jesus unto Himself, body and soul. Have you any evidence from the Book and the Sunnah to show that it is not so?

The only way you could possibly know this is if knowledge from the heavans above descended upon you...and last time I checked, revelation stopped when the Prophet died.

It is befitting now for me to ask you again: what is your evidence that Jesus is dead and buried??? Give us something from the Book and the authentic Sunnah.


Quote:
I do agree that one should not blindly believe/accept any and everything without sufficient evidence.
Alhamdulillah....so we wait for your evidences, as far as this discussion has gone we have brought all our proofs for our beliefs... And I still I have not seen a single one from you.

One last thing

Quote:
What I meant is that only Allah is qualified to judge what is in our hearts and what we believe.
What I meant was that Allaah has already judged disbelief on the people who believe this...not me, not the brothers and trinimuslims, not the muftis and mowlanas.... Allaah, the Creator.

And Imaan, i.e. belief is not just belief in the heart. It is belief in the heart, statement on the tongue and actions upon the limbs.

And Allaah knows better.
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Old 11Feb2007, 04:37 PM   #28
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Firstly - What exactly are YOUR beliefs on the death of Jesus, and in order to make this as simple as possible, I'll clarify what I mean with a few questions, since while I can provide the proof you ask of me, I do not wish to go through every single possibility with quotes from the Qur'an since doing this may take an exceedingly long time and my weekly and daily schedule does not allow me that much time.

From what I have gathered, you believe that he is alive.

If so, then which verses from the Qur'an say so?

Where is he?

And why is there need for him to return?


And where possible please give quotes from the Qur'an to support your view.

You ask me to bring my proof, yet you do not bring yours.
You said:
Quote:
Allaah, the Most Knowledgeable, the All-Aware said that He raised Jesus unto Himself, body and soul.
Can you please tell me the verse of the Holy Qur'an that says this (particularly the body and soul part). And is this the verse from which your statement that Jesus is alive finds truth?

I shall also be grateful if when you quote from the Qur'an you can give me the Chapters and verses from where the quotes come so that I can refer to my copy of the Qur'an.
Thank you.
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Old 11Feb2007, 06:40 PM   #29
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Firstly - What exactly are YOUR beliefs on the death of Jesus, and in order to make this as simple as possible, I'll clarify what I mean with a few questions, since while I can provide the proof you ask of me, I do not wish to go through every single possibility with quotes from the Qur'an since doing this may take an exceedingly long time and my weekly and daily schedule does not allow me that much time.

From what I have gathered, you believe that he is alive.

If so, then which verses from the Qur'an say so?

Where is he?

And why is there need for him to return?


And where possible please give quotes from the Qur'an to support your view.

You ask me to bring my proof, yet you do not bring yours.
You said:
Quote:
Allaah, the Most Knowledgeable, the All-Aware said that He raised Jesus unto Himself, body and soul.


Can you please tell me the verse of the Holy Qur'an that says this (particularly the body and soul part). And is this the verse from which your statement that Jesus is alive finds truth?

I shall also be grateful if when you quote from the Qur'an you can give me the Chapters and verses from where the quotes come so that I can refer to my copy of the Qur'an.
Thank you.
I say, seeking the Help of Allaah, maybe you have not read the whole thread. The ayaat and the explanation has already been brought forward in an earlier post... so refer to that.

Read Surah An-Nisaaa', which is chapter 4 and you will see the clear ayah where Allaah, tabaarka wa ta'ala said that He raised Jesus unto Himself.

You said you can provide proof, but it will be tedious. Then bring one, a single proof, to show that Jesus has died and is buried, from the Qur'aan.

Also, the many many ahadeeth, which are mutawaatir, and the meaning of mutawaatir has preceded but we will mention it again. The narrations come from so many routes, that it is impossible for it be a fabrication. These ahaadeeth mention that Jesus will return, which if you have any common sense, indicates that he has not died, alaihis salaam.

As for your question, Where is Jesus right now? Then he in the heavens, as is reported in the hadeeth, collected in Saheeh Al Bukhaaree:

Allah's Apostle said, "On the night of my ascension to Heaven, I saw (the prophet) Moses who was a thin person with lank hair, looking like one of the men of the tribe of Shanua; and I saw Jesus who was of average height with red face as if he had just come out of a bathroom. And I resemble prophet Abraham more than any of his offspring does. Then I was given two cups, one containing milk and the other wine. Gabriel said, 'Drink whichever you like.' I took the milk and drank it. Gabriel said, 'You have accepted what is natural, (True Religion i.e. Islam) and if you had taken the wine, your followers would have gone astray.' "

Also, there comes in another hadeeth, collected by Imaam Al Bukhaaree:

The Prophet said, "I saw Moses, Jesus and Abraham (on the night of my ascension to the heavens). Jesus was of red complexion, curly hair and a broad chest. Moses was of brown complexion, straight hair and tall stature as if he was from the people of Az-Zutt."


And there are more authentic ahaadeeth like these.

Why is there are need for him to return?

With Allaah is the Judgement, and the Wisdom and the actions of Allaah are not be questioned simply because we do not have the capacity to encompass Allaah's Will and Wisdom. "...Allaah knows and you do not know..." (Surah Baqarah)

I see you put Qur'an in bold, as if to say, you only want evidence from the Qur'aan. Do you believe in the Sunnah? Do you accept the authentic ahaadeeth?

Because if you do, it is impossible to believe that Jesus has died and is buried....there is no proof from the Sunnah for that.

But, your mujadid, your reformer said, as quoted in earlier posts, that he accepts everything that the Messenger said, and he regards Saheeh Al Bukhaaree as the most authentic book after the Qur'aan.

And it is impossible for you to be a Muslim while not believing in the Sunnah. Allaah said: "And whatever the Messenger gives you take it; and what he forbids you from; abstain from it." (Surah Hashr)

Simple example to prove the point, how would you know how to pray i.e. perform Salaah were it not for the Sunnah? Tayyib.


Quote:
You ask me to bring my proof, yet you do not bring yours.
The proof had already been presented before you even posted a letter.

The burden of proof is upon the claimant as the Prophet salallahu 'alaihi wa sallam said. So we are still waiting, wallahul musta'aan...wallahul musta'aan.

And Allaah, ta'aala knows best.

I will add one more thing, Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic said in Surah An Nisaa':

"...and if you differ in anything, refer it back to Allaah and the Messenger if you truly believe in Allaah and the Last Day, that is better..."

Two things:

(1) Will Allaah tell us to refer to something i.e. the Sunnah (refer back to the Messenger) if it doesn't exist?

(2) As for us, then we have been referring back to the Qur'aan and the Sunnah, as Allaah commanded us when this difference arose.

Have you?
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Old 26Feb2007, 02:04 PM   #30
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You see the Ahmadiyyah movement has realized that laying claim that Mirza Ahmad was a prophet is too high profile of a deviant belief to put out. So they have hidden their belief from the average muslim.
They would claim that there is no Prophet after Muhammad but they believe that Mirza Ahmad is the reincarnation of Isa Ibn Maryam, so in reality he would not be a 'new' Prophet.
Look at how they play with words:

Quote:
"Prophets come for the purpose of changing the religion, changing the qibla [direction in which people pray], cancelling some of the [existing] commandments and introducing some new commandments. But in my case there is no claim of such a revolution. There is the same Islam as before, the same prayers as before, the same Chosen Prophet as before, and the same Holy Book as before. One does not have to omit any such thing from the original faith as to cause so much bewilderment. The claim to be the Promised Messiah would have been dangerous, and worthy of being treated with caution, if, along with this claim, there was some alteration --- God forbid --- in the commandments of the faith, so that our practices would have been somewhat different from those of other Muslims. When there is none of this, and the only issue in dispute is the life or death of Jesus, the claim to be the Promised Messiah being only an off-shoot of this issue, and this claim does not mean a change in the practices of the faith, nor does it adversely affect the tenets of Islam, then is there any need for a great miracle or sign to be shown in order for this claim to be accepted, the demand for which is the old custom of people in case of a claim to prophethood? Is it difficult for a fair-minded and God-fearing person to accept a Muslim whom God has sent in support of Islam and whose objects are that he make manifest to the people the beauties of Islam, and prove that Islam is free from the objections of modern philosophy, and make the Muslims lean towards the love of Allah and the Messenger?
If the claim of being the Promised Messiah entailed any imperatives which adversely affect the commandments and beliefs of the Shari`ah, that indeed would have been horrible. What ought to be looked into is what Islamic truth have I transformed by my claim, and which are the commandments of Islam in which I have made an increase or decrease of even a dot? True, I have interpreted a prophecy in a manner revealed to me by the Almighty Allah in this age. The Holy Quran is witness to the truth of this interpretation, and so are the reliable traditions of the Holy Prophet. Why is there then so much hue and cry?"

(Ainah Kamalat Islam, p. 339)
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